[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4711 Post by aceman » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 pm

when did the speed limit in the trench at Darlington change to 80? is it north bound only or is the limit 80 south bound as well?

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4712 Post by SBD » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:05 pm

aceman wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 pm
when did the speed limit in the trench at Darlington change to 80? is it north bound only or is the limit 80 south bound as well?
Today, according to its Facebook post.
All new lanes in the Darlington Upgrade Project lowered motorway are open and the speed limit has been lifted to 80km/h between the Southern Expressway and Ayliffes Road.
A partial closure of the lowered motorway will be required in late 2020, for the final asphalt wearing course. Advance notice of this closure will be provided closer to the date.
Some minor finishing works will also be required over the coming months across the project site including landscaping, wayfinding, public art and remediation of the site compound, and signage and speed restrictions will be in place where required during these times. Other road closures and traffic restrictions may be required and advance notice will be provided.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4713 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:20 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:31 pm
rev wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:56 pm
Yes, that's what that part of South Road needs, buses added to the already existing congested mix.
That's around the time of the first planned traffic switch. Might there be indented bus stop bays at those six stops (three in each direction)?
It's much slower for buses to have to merge with traffic. Cars can wait while buses pick up and drop off passengers.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4714 Post by rev » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:16 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:20 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:31 pm
rev wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:56 pm
Yes, that's what that part of South Road needs, buses added to the already existing congested mix.
That's around the time of the first planned traffic switch. Might there be indented bus stop bays at those six stops (three in each direction)?
It's much slower for buses to have to merge with traffic. Cars can wait while buses pick up and drop off passengers.
Are you actually suggesting that a major thoroughfare like South Road, even during re-construction, should have on road bus stops and that other traffic should wait for buses?

I don't get this line of thought from people, same with cyclists who think everyone else should wait for them, when the alternative is to actually create infrastructure that accommodates all users with little to no impediment on other users. What's so hard or wrong with that?

Buses have right of way, as per the sign on the back window. Other vehicles have to give way when a bus is merging back in after dropping off/picking up passengers.
What you suggest will lead to more congestion even if it is only temporary.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4715 Post by SBD » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:41 am

rev wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:16 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:20 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:31 pm


That's around the time of the first planned traffic switch. Might there be indented bus stop bays at those six stops (three in each direction)?
It's much slower for buses to have to merge with traffic. Cars can wait while buses pick up and drop off passengers.
Are you actually suggesting that a major thoroughfare like South Road, even during re-construction, should have on road bus stops and that other traffic should wait for buses?

I don't get this line of thought from people, same with cyclists who think everyone else should wait for them, when the alternative is to actually create infrastructure that accommodates all users with little to no impediment on other users. What's so hard or wrong with that?

Buses have right of way, as per the sign on the back window. Other vehicles have to give way when a bus is merging back in after dropping off/picking up passengers.
What you suggest will lead to more congestion even if it is only temporary.
I would prefer indented, partly for aesthetics, but northbound, it really doesn't matter at all, as the cars and truck will be waiting, whether it is behind a bus or at the Regency Road traffic lights. Southbound similarly for Torrens Road and Pym Street except maybe for the middle stop.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4716 Post by rev » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:05 pm

SBD wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:41 am
rev wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:16 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:20 pm


It's much slower for buses to have to merge with traffic. Cars can wait while buses pick up and drop off passengers.
Are you actually suggesting that a major thoroughfare like South Road, even during re-construction, should have on road bus stops and that other traffic should wait for buses?

I don't get this line of thought from people, same with cyclists who think everyone else should wait for them, when the alternative is to actually create infrastructure that accommodates all users with little to no impediment on other users. What's so hard or wrong with that?

Buses have right of way, as per the sign on the back window. Other vehicles have to give way when a bus is merging back in after dropping off/picking up passengers.
What you suggest will lead to more congestion even if it is only temporary.
I would prefer indented, partly for aesthetics, but northbound, it really doesn't matter at all, as the cars and truck will be waiting, whether it is behind a bus or at the Regency Road traffic lights. Southbound similarly for Torrens Road and Pym Street except maybe for the middle stop.
I mean it's all going to be temporary until the final alignment is finished anyway, unless the side roads (the bits that will be "south road) will be opened first which I assume is what's going to happen while they build the overpass and motorway through the middle.

Anyway, looking at the next section. The entire remaining section to be done runs about 11km. One industry group claimed it was going to cost $11 billion to do a tunnel for the entire length.
Over in Sydney the NorthConnex tunnel which runs 9km through suburban Sydney, has a cost of $3 billion.
In two and a half years they've dug out 21km of tunnel, according to a factsheet from the project website. I assume that 21km means both directions and at motorway standard or whatever.
Major work started in mid 2015.
It's due to open this year, delayed by a year because they had issues with construction due to the 90m depth.
For further reference, what the suggested exaggerated cost of $11 billion by that industry group could get you is the original WestConnex, which is 33km in length and mostly underground (about 26km of it) although the cost of that has nearly doubled now.


I don't see why a 10-11 km tunnel at motorway standard couldn't be built here for between 3-5 billion (inflation and whatever) within a 5-7 year time frame.
Throw in a few hundred million to upgrade the improve the surface road.

Don't we have like $5 billion already on the table committed for the remaining section?
They want to stimulate the economy especially during this pandemic induced recession. Well here you go, perfect opportunity and perfect project for it. 5~+ years of construction, thousands of jobs.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4717 Post by SBD » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:24 pm

rev wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:05 pm
SBD wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:41 am
rev wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:16 am


Are you actually suggesting that a major thoroughfare like South Road, even during re-construction, should have on road bus stops and that other traffic should wait for buses?

I don't get this line of thought from people, same with cyclists who think everyone else should wait for them, when the alternative is to actually create infrastructure that accommodates all users with little to no impediment on other users. What's so hard or wrong with that?

Buses have right of way, as per the sign on the back window. Other vehicles have to give way when a bus is merging back in after dropping off/picking up passengers.
What you suggest will lead to more congestion even if it is only temporary.
I would prefer indented, partly for aesthetics, but northbound, it really doesn't matter at all, as the cars and truck will be waiting, whether it is behind a bus or at the Regency Road traffic lights. Southbound similarly for Torrens Road and Pym Street except maybe for the middle stop.
I mean it's all going to be temporary until the final alignment is finished anyway, unless the side roads (the bits that will be "south road) will be opened first which I assume is what's going to happen while they build the overpass and motorway through the middle.

Anyway, looking at the next section. The entire remaining section to be done runs about 11km. One industry group claimed it was going to cost $11 billion to do a tunnel for the entire length.
Over in Sydney the NorthConnex tunnel which runs 9km through suburban Sydney, has a cost of $3 billion.
In two and a half years they've dug out 21km of tunnel, according to a factsheet from the project website. I assume that 21km means both directions and at motorway standard or whatever.
Major work started in mid 2015.
It's due to open this year, delayed by a year because they had issues with construction due to the 90m depth.
For further reference, what the suggested exaggerated cost of $11 billion by that industry group could get you is the original WestConnex, which is 33km in length and mostly underground (about 26km of it) although the cost of that has nearly doubled now.


I don't see why a 10-11 km tunnel at motorway standard couldn't be built here for between 3-5 billion (inflation and whatever) within a 5-7 year time frame.
Throw in a few hundred million to upgrade the improve the surface road.

Don't we have like $5 billion already on the table committed for the remaining section?
They want to stimulate the economy especially during this pandemic induced recession. Well here you go, perfect opportunity and perfect project for it. 5~+ years of construction, thousands of jobs.
It looks like the first traffic switches might be to move to the final alignments away from Regency Road on both sides - southbound south of Regency Road (not sure how far) and Northbound north of it. Northbound towards Regency Road looks like it might then temporarily move over to the present southbound carriageway while the northbound section is completely rebuilt as it is pretty terrible at present.

The people who proposed the price for tunnels undoubtedly had an expectation management motive in providing a high price, especially without any detailed geological surveys and evidence from Darlington that the geology is not always simple. The cost of a deep hole in Sydney is not necessarily the same as a hole in Adelaide.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4718 Post by claybro » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:52 pm

a short shallow 20 second earthquake in Adelaide in the 1950's caused millions of dollars damage and levelled several buildings around Darlington. One would hope any long tunnel would take this into account, but given contractors did not even account for groundwater in the Darlington trench, leading to a section I'd the retaining wall collapsing, sorry, but I don't put much faith in their expertise for such a massive undertaking.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4719 Post by rev » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:52 am

claybro wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:52 pm
a short shallow 20 second earthquake in Adelaide in the 1950's caused millions of dollars damage and levelled several buildings around Darlington. One would hope any long tunnel would take this into account, but given contractors did not even account for groundwater in the Darlington trench, leading to a section I'd the retaining wall collapsing, sorry, but I don't put much faith in their expertise for such a massive undertaking.
Wasn't that caused by some pipe that someone forgot about?

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4720 Post by SBD » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:50 am

rev wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:52 am
claybro wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:52 pm
a short shallow 20 second earthquake in Adelaide in the 1950's caused millions of dollars damage and levelled several buildings around Darlington. One would hope any long tunnel would take this into account, but given contractors did not even account for groundwater in the Darlington trench, leading to a section I'd the retaining wall collapsing, sorry, but I don't put much faith in their expertise for such a massive undertaking.
Wasn't that caused by some pipe that someone forgot about?
Auditor General's report

The retaining wall collapse was caused by a combination of natural defects in the Hindmarsh Clay, disturbance through backfilling of the trench from a former water main parallel to the wall, and water seepage from a perched water table.

Earthquakes are caused by faults in the Earth's crust, and there are a number of them parallel to the edge of the Adelaide Hills.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4721 Post by Eurostar » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:36 pm

In my opinion due to water table in Edwardstown area

> Superway style motorway from Tonsley to Edwardstown

During construction maybe Marion Road could have all right turns banned other than at Cross Road and Daws Road making for better flow. The detour route could be Sturt Road, Marion Road, Cross Road and vice versa.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4722 Post by rev » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:58 pm

How come there's a potential issue with the water table here, but they can build a tunnel under Sydney Harbour?
How come the Legacy Way tunnel in Brisbane under the suburbs and not far from the Brisbane River was able to be built with out the water table being an issue? That's a significant body of water that has flooded before. Or the M7 which goes under the Brisbane River..
Melbourne's Burnley tunnels run under/crosses the Yarra, and one of the entry's is like 80m from the Yarra it self.
We don't have technology that can circumvent any potential problems with water?
How are skyscrapers built along waterfronts but apparently the water table here will be a problem for a tunnel?

I'm not an expert so I don't know if any of the building methods or technologies available would be suitable, but surely Adelaide isn't the only place where the water table has presented a challenge? Is it a cost thing? At this time with the country being in a recession, the federal government will be looking to spend their way out of it with infrastructure projects. We should push for more funding for this project.

If it is a technology thing, why not over come it? Civilizations weren't built by people throwing their hands up and saying too hard, they were built by people striving for excellence by over coming challenges.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4723 Post by AG » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm

High water table would not prohibit a tunnel from being constructed - there's plenty of tunnels constructed in locations with high water tables and drainage systems to suit.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4724 Post by SBD » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:03 pm

rev wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:58 pm
How come there's a potential issue with the water table here, but they can build a tunnel under Sydney Harbour?
How come the Legacy Way tunnel in Brisbane under the suburbs and not far from the Brisbane River was able to be built with out the water table being an issue? That's a significant body of water that has flooded before. Or the M7 which goes under the Brisbane River..
Melbourne's Burnley tunnels run under/crosses the Yarra, and one of the entry's is like 80m from the Yarra it self.
We don't have technology that can circumvent any potential problems with water?
How are skyscrapers built along waterfronts but apparently the water table here will be a problem for a tunnel?

I'm not an expert so I don't know if any of the building methods or technologies available would be suitable, but surely Adelaide isn't the only place where the water table has presented a challenge? Is it a cost thing? At this time with the country being in a recession, the federal government will be looking to spend their way out of it with infrastructure projects. We should push for more funding for this project.

If it is a technology thing, why not over come it? Civilizations weren't built by people throwing their hands up and saying too hard, they were built by people striving for excellence by over coming challenges.
The water on the surface (harbour/river etc) is not necessarily connected to the water table underneath it.

I imagine that considerations about cost would address both the construction cost and the ongoing operations/maintenance costs and integrity checks and monitoring.

I am not an engineer either, but a large tube full of air will "float" on the water table in soft soils. That is why it is very difficult to bury old tyres at landfill dumps and have them stay buried. That could well mean that a tunnel has to be deep enough to be dug through rock not soil, and portal entrances have to be sited to also not move. I used to have an uncle who lived in St Marys and had dug (by hand) a water well in his back yard with sufficient water flow to water his garden.

Putting the road up on towers means the weight is pushing down, not lifting up through the dirt.

Yes, technology can probably solve it, but is it worth it? A deep tunnel would have a long descent into it, potentially resulting in the same kinds of problems as we have at the city end of the South Eastern Freeway. The cost-benefit ratio no doubt depends on exactly what the engineering issues might be.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4725 Post by rev » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:24 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:03 pm

Yes, technology can probably solve it, but is it worth it?
If a local or national engineering firm can solve whatever issue there is, and it hasn't been done before, then yes, absolutely it is worth it. For several reasons, not least of which financially. There would be other places around the world which probably have similar circumstances. Imagine a local Adelaide firm going global and doing that engineering work around the world. Think of it this way, there's very few companies from even fewer countries that can do deep sea drilling and oil/gas extraction.
A lot of Chinese mega projects, and even some in the Arab world, have used Australian engineers and firms.

But I'm going off topic here so yeh, it will probably come down to cost. Unless Canberra turns the screws and says you're building a tunnel and we're putting up more funding for it, I don't think we will get a tunnel as much as I want one lol. Unfortunately it'll continue to be a mix-match like the already built/uc sections.

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