News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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Norman
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4351 Post by Norman » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am

claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:57 am
The WA state Labor party went to two elections with their Metronet rail proposal as their centrepiece. First time they lost norrowly. Second time they won in a landslide. Even from opposition, they had clear plans, and objectives, so everyone knew where the new rail lines would service, the new suburban higher density hubs, and how it would be funded. The outcome is, as soon as it was in power, Labor began detailed planning for routes, stations and constructed a rail car production centre, so all the new trains could be built here in Perth. Now compare that to the approach in SA. The Adelink proposal was so vague it could have been drawn on the back of a beer coaster. No timelines, no funding plan, no priorities of route construction, no urban renewal plans to justify it. There was the OH line fiasco. Light rail, hybrid light/heavy rail, heavy rail only, port dock spur on heavy rail.. it was all brain fart stuff. It confused Infrastructure Australia no end, and was so flimsy in its benefits that it was never going to attract real funding. The Libs then come in to power.. do nothing while all other capitals are furiously rolling out light and heavy rail. Happy days SA let's all go back to sleep so our suburbs are not changed by awful urban renewal and horrible trains, trams and freeways. Forever 1975.
Well, it's great that they had good policy development, and it's nice to see that they found some extra funding sources to build it, but I doubt that the party won the election because of a few train line proposals. The Liberal party in WA was in tatters for many years and were due to lose the election anyway.

Yes, the Liberal party in SA had an extremely poor policy base before the 2018 election, especially around transport, but let's hope that with Infrastructure SA there will be a greater emphasis on developing projects and preparing them for funding submissions rather than ad-hoc projects.

In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4352 Post by Goodsy » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:23 pm

Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:57 am
The WA state Labor party went to two elections with their Metronet rail proposal as their centrepiece. First time they lost norrowly. Second time they won in a landslide. Even from opposition, they had clear plans, and objectives, so everyone knew where the new rail lines would service, the new suburban higher density hubs, and how it would be funded. The outcome is, as soon as it was in power, Labor began detailed planning for routes, stations and constructed a rail car production centre, so all the new trains could be built here in Perth. Now compare that to the approach in SA. The Adelink proposal was so vague it could have been drawn on the back of a beer coaster. No timelines, no funding plan, no priorities of route construction, no urban renewal plans to justify it. There was the OH line fiasco. Light rail, hybrid light/heavy rail, heavy rail only, port dock spur on heavy rail.. it was all brain fart stuff. It confused Infrastructure Australia no end, and was so flimsy in its benefits that it was never going to attract real funding. The Libs then come in to power.. do nothing while all other capitals are furiously rolling out light and heavy rail. Happy days SA let's all go back to sleep so our suburbs are not changed by awful urban renewal and horrible trains, trams and freeways. Forever 1975.
Well, it's great that they had good policy development, and it's nice to see that they found some extra funding sources to build it, but I doubt that the party won the election because of a few train line proposals. The Liberal party in WA was in tatters for many years and were due to lose the election anyway.

Yes, the Liberal party in SA had an extremely poor policy base before the 2018 election, especially around transport, but let's hope that with Infrastructure SA there will be a greater emphasis on developing projects and preparing them for funding submissions rather than ad-hoc projects.

In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
They could just run with the last Labor governments level crossing removal proposals

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4353 Post by claybro » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:31 pm

Infrastructure SA though cannot look at these projects in isolation. There needs to be a broader approach to station precincts/urban renewal - which brings the property lobby groups on board and increases pressure on the Feds for funding, and major station upgrades on existing lines, to increase patronage, again justifying the expenditure. Without this whole of system approach, PT infrastructure in isolation is a hard sell both for funding, and public acceptance. From what I read of Infrastructure SA.. this is not part of their brief.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4354 Post by SBD » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:51 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:57 am
The WA state Labor party went to two elections with their Metronet rail proposal as their centrepiece. First time they lost norrowly. Second time they won in a landslide. Even from opposition, they had clear plans, and objectives, so everyone knew where the new rail lines would service, the new suburban higher density hubs, and how it would be funded. The outcome is, as soon as it was in power, Labor began detailed planning for routes, stations and constructed a rail car production centre, so all the new trains could be built here in Perth. Now compare that to the approach in SA. The Adelink proposal was so vague it could have been drawn on the back of a beer coaster. No timelines, no funding plan, no priorities of route construction, no urban renewal plans to justify it. There was the OH line fiasco. Light rail, hybrid light/heavy rail, heavy rail only, port dock spur on heavy rail.. it was all brain fart stuff. It confused Infrastructure Australia no end, and was so flimsy in its benefits that it was never going to attract real funding. The Libs then come in to power.. do nothing while all other capitals are furiously rolling out light and heavy rail. Happy days SA let's all go back to sleep so our suburbs are not changed by awful urban renewal and horrible trains, trams and freeways. Forever 1975.
Is it possible the new ministers went to their departments and said "show me the plans that Labor has been talking about developing" and got handed a few beer coasters instead of shovel-ready (and other construction) plans and completed business cases for things like the Port Dock, rail electrification, North-South Corridor? Even the things both parties agreed should be done (N-S motorway) aren't getting done, so there has to have been a problem somewhere.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4355 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:03 pm

claybro wrote:Infrastructure SA though cannot look at these projects in isolation. There needs to be a broader approach to station precincts/urban renewal - which brings the property lobby groups on board and increases pressure on the Feds for funding, and major station upgrades on existing lines, to increase patronage, again justifying the expenditure. Without this whole of system approach, PT infrastructure in isolation is a hard sell both for funding, and public acceptance. From what I read of Infrastructure SA.. this is not part of their brief.
Infrastructure SA is superfluous.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4356 Post by how good is he » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:52 pm

What I am sick of the endless studies, reports, consultation etc and then in the end nothing happens anyway. ...or if it does it takes many years. However Adelink did have a very thorough analysis of the 5 routes/options but in the end issues like - the business case didn't stack up/not enough patronage, loss of off street car parks and how it would affect nearby businesses all negated doing anything. Then even if a project does "stack up" is the money there anyway as usually we have to pitch to the Federal Govt and compete with the other states. Also the completion of the North-South corridor will cost say $10 billion and I think will take the bulk of the money, so a lot less for funding of new public transport, train line extensions etc.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4357 Post by claybro » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:30 pm

how good is he wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:52 pm
What I am sick of the endless studies, reports, consultation etc and then in the end nothing happens anyway. ...or if it does it takes many years. However Adelink did have a very thorough analysis of the 5 routes/options but in the end issues like - the business case didn't stack up/not enough patronage, loss of off street car parks and how it would affect nearby businesses all negated doing anything. Then even if a project does "stack up" is the money there anyway as usually we have to pitch to the Federal Govt and compete with the other states. Also the completion of the North-South corridor will cost say $10 billion and I think will take the bulk of the money, so a lot less for funding of new public transport, train line extensions etc.
The completion of the N/S corridor should not cost anywhere near $10 billion. Also, the other states get the money, because they present cohesive comprehensive plans based on growth. I just can't understand the defeatist attitude in SA, even on this "development forum". Why do I care? Because for better or worse SA is my home state. It is where my heart still lies, and it has so much potential... just a very negative do nothing attitude. You can start by making your politicians more accountable.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4358 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:36 pm

Back on topic, here's a throwback for your Windback Wednesday.

Image
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4359 Post by Norman » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:13 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:31 pm
Infrastructure SA though cannot look at these projects in isolation. There needs to be a broader approach to station precincts/urban renewal - which brings the property lobby groups on board and increases pressure on the Feds for funding, and major station upgrades on existing lines, to increase patronage, again justifying the expenditure. Without this whole of system approach, PT infrastructure in isolation is a hard sell both for funding, and public acceptance. From what I read of Infrastructure SA.. this is not part of their brief.
Precinct planning is done by councils, not the state government. Councils sometimes work with private developers to create masterplans, but this only occurs on large sites with a single owner.

The state governments create the overall planning strategy for Greater Adelaide and approve the development plan amendments. Unless the already own or purchase the land, they are not involved with urban renewal.

Recent examples where the state government has intervened include Bowden, where they purchased the land, and Woodville West, which was primarily public housing. There are also the Lightsview and Northgate projects, which were previously owned by the state government as well, however they are not situated near train lines.

The best way we can leverage urban renewal around train stations in Adelaide is to work with developers such as the one at Kilkenny and try to come to a funding arrangement between the state government, the council and the developer to upgrade the train station and surrounds.

With the private sector the main driver of this, this will be a demand-driven change. And with low population growth and a preference for subdivided properties instead of high-density housing next to train stations, it will be some time before we see any major changes around the existing train stations.

We still have plenty of land available near Bowden, which has slowed significantly over the last few years. There is also the newly created land around Oaklands Station. Since that is now government owned there might be some movement there sometime in the future.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4360 Post by ml69 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:15 am

Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
I wouldn’t bother with line extensions to Aldinga, Roseworthy or Salisbury North yet. Not a priority. Let’s get our current lines up to standard first.

Outer Harbor electrification is a no-brainer.

Close the Grange line, and replace it with a line extension to West Lakes - double track to Albert Park, then widen West Lakes Blvd and put in one track down the median). Build a park n ride multi-storey car park at West Lakes. It’ll easily get 3-5 times the patronage of the Grange line.

Then tie together each of our 5 electrified lines (Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor and West Lakes) with a CBD rail tunnel, with stops at current Adelaide station, Hindmarsh Square and Victoria Square.

This will offer huge efficiency and time savings for commuters working in parts of the CBD not immediately adjacent to the current railway station.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4361 Post by Verbatim9 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:07 am

ml69 wrote:
Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
I wouldn’t bother with line extensions to Aldinga, Roseworthy or Salisbury North yet. Not a priority. Let’s get our current lines up to standard first.

Outer Harbor electrification is a no-brainer.

Close the Grange line, and replace it with a line extension to West Lakes - double track to Albert Park, then widen West Lakes Blvd and put in one track down the median). Build a park n ride multi-storey car park at West Lakes. It’ll easily get 3-5 times the patronage of the Grange line.

Then tie together each of our 5 electrified lines (Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor and West Lakes) with a CBD rail tunnel, with stops at current Adelaide station, Hindmarsh Square and Victoria Square.

This will offer huge efficiency and time savings for commuters working in parts of the CBD not immediately adjacent to the current railway station.
Grange should be converted to Light Rail from Woodville. It's only single-track. LRT conversion would be far more efficient and reliable.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4362 Post by Norman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:41 am


ml69 wrote:
Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
I wouldn’t bother with line extensions to Aldinga, Roseworthy or Salisbury North yet. Not a priority. Let’s get our current lines up to standard first.

Outer Harbor electrification is a no-brainer.

Close the Grange line, and replace it with a line extension to West Lakes - double track to Albert Park, then widen West Lakes Blvd and put in one track down the median). Build a park n ride multi-storey car park at West Lakes. It’ll easily get 3-5 times the patronage of the Grange line.

Then tie together each of our 5 electrified lines (Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor and West Lakes) with a CBD rail tunnel, with stops at current Adelaide station, Hindmarsh Square and Victoria Square.

This will offer huge efficiency and time savings for commuters working in parts of the CBD not immediately adjacent to the current railway station.
I think the all the lines I mentioned except for Roseworthy are worth doing now. There are plenty of houses around the other locations already, with potential for some urban renewal around Salisbury North.

What do you mean by "widen West Lakes Boulevard"? Demolish houses on one of the sides? Or remove some of the road lanes?

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4363 Post by ChillyPhilly » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:38 am

Verbatim9 wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:07 am
ml69 wrote:
Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
I wouldn’t bother with line extensions to Aldinga, Roseworthy or Salisbury North yet. Not a priority. Let’s get our current lines up to standard first.

Outer Harbor electrification is a no-brainer.

Close the Grange line, and replace it with a line extension to West Lakes - double track to Albert Park, then widen West Lakes Blvd and put in one track down the median). Build a park n ride multi-storey car park at West Lakes. It’ll easily get 3-5 times the patronage of the Grange line.

Then tie together each of our 5 electrified lines (Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor and West Lakes) with a CBD rail tunnel, with stops at current Adelaide station, Hindmarsh Square and Victoria Square.

This will offer huge efficiency and time savings for commuters working in parts of the CBD not immediately adjacent to the current railway station.
Grange should be converted to Light Rail from Woodville. It's only single-track. LRT conversion would be far more efficient and reliable.
Where does the light rail to/from Woodville link to?
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4364 Post by claybro » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:20 am

No point discussing a light rail Grange spur from Woodville, or to West Lakes for that matter. The option for conversion to light rail for the whole OH corridor, including spur lines to Grange/West Lakes/Port Adelaide/Sempahore etc, was studied in detail at government level, with multiple options presented and discussed ad nauseum on here. Many, familiar with the area were dismayed about loosing their heavy rail main line,(despite woeful patronage) and the weight of public opinion put the whole lot in the too hard basket. From then it was only ever going to be a conversion of the existing line to electrified heavy rail-eventually, with the possibility of the Grange closure. The former government set this in stone with their proposal for the heavy rail Port Dock spur. It was never an either or proposal once the train/tram fantasy was proven technologically unworkable. We were presented with a choice to support by the former government either 1. Electrified OH line in its current setup, or 2. Light rail for the whole corridor with multiple spur lines including street running. Seemingly there was not much support for the light rail proposal, the local councils lost interest, the public were apathetic and so here we are with nothing.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4365 Post by gnrc_louis » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:48 pm

ml69 wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:15 am
Norman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:02 am
In the meantime, here are some rail projects that should be considered:
-CBD Underground Link
-Extension to Aldinga
-Extension to Roseworthy (with associated town masterplan) and Gawler East
-Electrification of Outer Harbor and Grange lines
-Northern Connector rail bypass and Salisbury North line conversion for suburban trains, using the third track between Adelaide and Salisbury for express services
-Tram CBD Loop

These are some easy proposals (except the CBD link) that could be part of early Infrastructure Australia submissions.
I wouldn’t bother with line extensions to Aldinga, Roseworthy or Salisbury North yet. Not a priority. Let’s get our current lines up to standard first.

Outer Harbor electrification is a no-brainer.

Close the Grange line, and replace it with a line extension to West Lakes - double track to Albert Park, then widen West Lakes Blvd and put in one track down the median). Build a park n ride multi-storey car park at West Lakes. It’ll easily get 3-5 times the patronage of the Grange line.

Then tie together each of our 5 electrified lines (Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor and West Lakes) with a CBD rail tunnel, with stops at current Adelaide station, Hindmarsh Square and Victoria Square.

This will offer huge efficiency and time savings for commuters working in parts of the CBD not immediately adjacent to the current railway station.
Keep the Grange line, and do the West Lakes extension too. Enough rail has been closed over the years and buses are not an adequate substitute to encourage people to use more public transport - if anything they do the opposite. Any government serious about building a public transport system for the future should be focusing on light and heavy rail - not buses.

Also, an underground CBD rail tunnel would cost billions, no government is going to seriously consider it until rail patronage increases and there's a public push for it. It's decades away at best.

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