News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#601 Post by bits » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:55 pm

monotonehell wrote: It's a completely different situation.

Up until the NBN the service providers (Telstra, Optus, etc) had to provide a service that linked the copper wire from the exchange to the copper wire to your boundary point. This was done at the pit/cabinet with a crimp connector. Cost of a few cents plus labour. Metal wires all the way, no matter if your talking about voice or ADSL on top of voice.

Now with the NBN, a (neo)broadband service needs to be provided. This is a digital fibre service. With FTTP that fibre was simply divided at the pit/cabinet with a passive splitter at the cost of a few dollars plus labour.

However with the other technologies in the NBNco mix there must be an active device (powered + logic) in the cabinet or pit.

With FTTN there is a mini exchange in the much larger cabinet, converting the 'light signal' to an electrical signal (thus a power source is required) to be sent down the copper cable to the pit which is then sent down the lead in wire to the home. Any joints and other problems with the wire degrade this signal greatly often bringing FTTN to speeds not much faster than ADSL. The equipment costs here are great because the cabinet is basically a mini-exchange with modems, similar to how ADSL works, except the DSL modems are in the exchange and laid over the analogue voice signal.
You seem to have a weird idea of what NBN fttn is. It is just a device with fibre backhaul for vdsl ports.

As I already said telstra has been using nodes for decades.
They have rims and tophats and other names for relatable tech of nodes supplying copper services.
Many adsl connections for 20 years have been on a mini exchange/node fed from fibre. Same with pots, isdn etc etc.

For NBN fttn nothing is new other than the cards are vdsl instead of adsl, pots or isdn.

The fibre is connected to the fibre port of the device, then you have vdsl ports. Those vdsl ports are jumpered to the copper pair.
This is exactly what happens in main exchanges also. There is no significant difference from an exchange vs mini exchange other than possible housing space.
No magic just old skool telephony we have been using forever.

To NBN fttn an area you just install a node and then install a tie cable from joint, pillar or cabinet. Jumper the customer last mile copper pair to the tie cable to the new node instead of to the old node or exchange.

A building with a 100pr lead-in has single pairs redirected to the NBN node. This means existing pots, isdn, adsl, shdsl and all else continue to function on the other pairs of the lead-in.
There is no magic between the fibre and copper, it is all stuff we have been doing for a very very long time.

Fttn has been used for decades for many many services by the telephone industry.
Be it telstra with nodes or private pabx nodes.

There is no new challenges because your service terminates to its line card 200m from your house vs 6km from your house.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#602 Post by monotonehell » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:31 pm

Bits. You just repeated everything I said and completely missed my point. Again.
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#603 Post by bits » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:49 pm

monotonehell wrote:Bits. You just repeated everything I said and completely missed my point. Again.
Yea i dont get your point then.
You have copper, Telstra currently do not deem it unworkable so have no replaced it.
NBN will take over that copper and will experience zero additional problems than Telstra was faced with.

Your copper pair will continue to be regarded as in working order.

If it were broken those responsible would repair it.
It would be extremely unlikely NBN would find it cheaper to install a fttp node, fibre lead-in, fibre modem etc for a single user with an issue vs a minor repair to affected area of the cat3 network.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#604 Post by SRW » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:29 pm

The point I take from the above discussion is that it's shit that the Coalition's NBN doesn't strive to deliver equality of service (ie, speeds/reliability) to households. Such that mono's degraded copper could result in minimal improvement on ADSL even after the NBN upgrade, while someone down the street or in a neighbouring suburb could get FTTP standard.
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#605 Post by Vee » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:35 pm

The Coalition NBN FTTN labelled - 'a disaster for Australia'.
Questions re upgrade v replacement, speeds and end user costs, pricing.

Some experts have criticised the Coalition's fibre-to-the-node (FTTN)
... customers will have to “pay for the Coalition’s mistake” by upgrading their network in as soon as five years to access new technology ....

Emeritus Professor Rod Tucker (who advised an FTTP-based NBN strategy) said ... the Coalition’s decision to replace (this) .. with a network primarily using FTTN was a “disaster for Australia … ill-informed and short-sighted”.

Mr Tucker said network upgrades will cost customers about $1000 to $5000 per household to upgrade to fibre-to-the-curb (FTTdp) or FTTP.
“It’s not fair that end customers have to pay for the Coalition’s mistake."
Obsolete.
Professor Tucker said that for many small businesses relying on data, the fibre-to-the-node network was “already obsolete”.
“Many, many countries throughout Asia and Europe use FTTP, and so does New Zealand. FTTP is the ultimate solution.”
Upgrade? Pay for speed?
This follows NBN chief executive Bill Morrow’s admission at a Senate Estimates hearing that FTTN customers may need to upgrade their service in as soon as two years after the NBN rollout is forecast to be completed in 2020.

“When we see that people are willing to pay more than what they are paying today for 25 Mbps, then we will build a business case [for an upgrade]."

“You have to be willing to pay above what you are willing to pay today..."

“When there is more demand for faster speeds – and with 80 per cent of end users on 25Mbps or less, we argue there currently is not – then there may be other upgrade paths available.”
Replacement not upgrade
Internet Australia CEO Laurie Patton ....
"'As far as I’m concerned there is no upgrade path for FTTN. You rip it all out and start again with FTTdp. That’s a replacement not an upgrade."

“When they inevitably dump FTTN and go with FTTdp, all the costly nodes – the big cabinets in the streets – will have to be ripped out and taken away.

Likewise, they will have spent money providing the nodes with electrical power that will no longer be required and will also have to be pulled out.
“So why continue to roll out inferior technology that they know will need to be replaced?”
Read the full article:
The New Daily:
http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance ... ade-costs/

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#606 Post by SBD » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:49 pm

I currently have ADSL serviced by a RIM, which I assume has fibre to the exchange. I get faster internet now than I had at my old house with naked ADSL direct (no RIM as far as I know) to the same exchange. Naked ADSL is not available to my current home, I assume due to constraints of the RIM.

Is there a substantial infrastructure or architecture change when I get NBN FTTN installed later this year, or is it "just" a change of cards in the RIM for this housing estate? Will NBN need more nodes than the current RIM count to reduce cable lengths? What difference should I expect to see in my home?

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#607 Post by bits » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:24 am

SBD wrote:I currently have ADSL serviced by a RIM, which I assume has fibre to the exchange. I get faster internet now than I had at my old house with naked ADSL direct (no RIM as far as I know) to the same exchange. Naked ADSL is not available to my current home, I assume due to constraints of the RIM.

Is there a substantial infrastructure or architecture change when I get NBN FTTN installed later this year, or is it "just" a change of cards in the RIM for this housing estate? Will NBN need more nodes than the current RIM count to reduce cable lengths? What difference should I expect to see in my home?
You can not get naked because all rims/nodes are only telstra circuits due to space constraints, telstra not being obligated to give access to that part of their network and alternative providers cherry picking locations for their equipment.

When on a current rim/node all alternative providers are just reselling telstra circuits, telstra does not sell naked.

Under NBN if your area is delivered by fttn the following may happen:
-You will get more nodes installed in your area. This is so all houses have a shorter copper length. Depending on your house vs your current node you may have no significant difference in copper length.
-It is likely the old node will be left as is and a new node built near it. This allows the new node to be built to new spec and also allows old node to continue to service old services during changeover period. Note only adsl and pots services are planned to be retired, everything else remains on the old nodes/exchanges forever?
-Line cards will be vdsl instead of adsl
-NBN will be your wholesale provider instead of telstra.
-NBN will own your last mile copper and node backhaul.
-NBN is selling vdsl services up to 100/40 which you will be much more likely to reach due to reduced copper length. Adsl2+ annex A caps out at 24/1 which is what nearly everyone has been using so far, most can not reach anywhere near max speeds due to copper length. Also many of the current nodes only have adsl1(8/1) or Adsl2(12/1) ports not Adsl2+(24/1).


If your area has foxtel cable, it is likely you will be serviced by NBN hfc.
NBN hfc is basically the same thing as telstra/bigpond cable except NBN will be the wholesaler/owner instead of telstra being the exclusive retailer/owner.
NBN hfc is docsis 3.0 which telstra had in select areas for years. I have had it at my house for maybe 5 years now connected at 116mbit. NBN is selling and you can reliably connect at max sold 100/40.
My speed reduced from 116 to 100 when I moved to NBN.
For people on speeds greater than 100mbit/sec on Telstra HFC the NBN HFC will be a slower service compared to their current service.
There is a plan to move to docsis 3.1 which will allow gig speeds on hfc.

NBN fttc looks a lot like hfc with just the carriers end being powered from your end instead of theirs. And it will likely be vdsl instead of docsis 3.0.


NBN gives much greater consistency between speeds sold vs actual speed obtained compared to current adsl services.
The consistency is via different technology such as fttp and hfc or because of reduced copper length in fttn and fttc.

Most providers have NBN plans at speeds of 12/1 at comparable prices to their adsl2+(up to 24/1) plans.
With NBN you will get 12/1 reliably but many many people currently on adsl2+ who are under 2km from their line card/exchange/node have speeds greater than 12/1.
For people with speeds greater than 12/1 the NBN will likely either be slower or more expensive per month compared to their current service.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#608 Post by SBD » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:06 pm

I currently get about 9.5/0.9, when I moved to this house about 4 years ago it was more like 12.5 download. I was one of the first houses in the last stage of a housing estate. I think the RIM covers the entire estate (7 stages), so is probably near the far end over a kilometre away (I have not worked out exactly where it is). I have no idea if it is ADSL 2 or 2+. A lot of people in stages 4 and 5 have fixed Wifi aerials on the roof, I assume as the RIM had not been upgraded when they moved in.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#609 Post by rev » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:36 pm

Wow...they really just can't get it right can they. What a sad state of affairs this has become. Why not just go with the full fiber build as originally planned..
Is NBN Co planning to drop HFC from rollout plans?

23 January 2018

Is the NBN Co, the company rolling out Australia's national broadband network, planning to drop HFC altogether from its multi-technology mix that it adopted after 2013 for the network?

At least two suburbs in Melbourne have been switched from HFC to other technologies in the wake of the company's announcement in November that technical issues were bedevilling the use of the technology.

At that time, NBN Co announced that houses and businesses slated to receive the NBN over HFC would have to wait between six and nine months longer for connections.

Under the revised rollout plan, put in place after the Coalition Government came to power in 2013, the NBN Co planned to use both the Telstra and Optus HFC networks as a means of delivering the NBN, in order speed up the rollout.

The Optus HFC network was later found to be in an unusable state and its use was discontinued. The Telstra HFC network was used until the cessation of connections in December 2017.

A sharp-eyed reader drew iTWire's attention to the fact that the suburb of Aspendale, which had been set down to receive the NBN over HFC in 2018, had now been shifted to fibre-to-the-node technology and due for connections in 2019.

And the suburb of Aspendale Gardens, which was also down to receive the NBN over HFC this year, was now down to receive fibre-to-the-curb technology.

The reader raised the question "Is NBN quietly dropping HFC from the rollout? Reminds me of the one year of denial on Optus HFC until they admitted it after an election, seemingly hiding it until it wouldn't impact it."

iTWire contacted NBN Co on Saturday and asked whether HFC was being progressively dropped and requested a reply by close of business that day, in view of the fact that most companies have a media unit that works round the clock seven days a week.

NBN Co responded on Monday, apologising for not getting back by the time specified, but offering no information, apart from a link to the company's media page, and claiming that the information sought could be obtained on that page.

Had this been the case, then the initial query would never have been made.

So iTWire again asked NBN Co for the information sought in the first place:

"It has been noticed that the technology used for delivering the NBN in some suburbs has been changed from HFC to others.

"For instance, the Melbourne suburbs of Aspendale and Aspendale Gardens were due to get NBN through HFC this year. They have been changed to FTTN 2019 for Aspendale and FTTC for Aspendale Gardens.

"Is there a move away from HFC due to the issues that were made public in December last year?

"I recall that there was a year of denials about the use of Optus HFC before the decision not to use it for the rollout was announced.

"So will there be another announcement sometime this year that HFC is being junked altogether?"

To this, NBN Co has not replied.
https://www.itwire.com/telecoms-and-nbn ... plans.html

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#610 Post by rev » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:37 pm

SBD wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:06 pm
I currently get about 9.5/0.9, when I moved to this house about 4 years ago it was more like 12.5 download. I was one of the first houses in the last stage of a housing estate. I think the RIM covers the entire estate (7 stages), so is probably near the far end over a kilometre away (I have not worked out exactly where it is). I have no idea if it is ADSL 2 or 2+. A lot of people in stages 4 and 5 have fixed Wifi aerials on the roof, I assume as the RIM had not been upgraded when they moved in.
I'm on cable with Telstra, I'm getting over 100Mbps down.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#611 Post by Wayno » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:55 am

rev wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:36 pm
Wow...they really just can't get it right can they. What a sad state of affairs this has become. Why not just go with the full fiber build as originally planned..
Is NBN Co planning to drop HFC from rollout plans?
https://www.itwire.com/telecoms-and-nbn ... plans.html
I live in the SE corner of the city and NBN just reneged on giving my HFC connection by end-2017. Now promising mid/late-2018 and possible technology change.
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#612 Post by mawsonguy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:18 am

I'm in the last pocket of Mawson Lakes to get the NBN, it's not due until late 2018. In mid 2017, as the NBN was rolled out in the areas around my pocket, my ADSL 2 speeds plummeted by 90% or more. I eventually signed with Uniti Wireless. Their speed is the same as the basic NBN package but cheaper. I filled in the online form on Monday afternoon and it was installed, up and running by Tuesday evening. Excellent service and an Australian call centre!!! Strongly recommend it. As I no longer need a land line, I've cancelled my home phone and I'm saving money.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#613 Post by Listy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:13 pm

Wayno wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:55 am
rev wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:36 pm
Wow...they really just can't get it right can they. What a sad state of affairs this has become. Why not just go with the full fiber build as originally planned..
Is NBN Co planning to drop HFC from rollout plans?
https://www.itwire.com/telecoms-and-nbn ... plans.html
I live in the SE corner of the city and NBN just reneged on giving my HFC connection by end-2017. Now promising mid/late-2018 and possible technology change.
There's clearly suburbs that are getting switched to other technology but I don't think the NBN is dropping HFC either. I'm in a rollout area (West Adelaide) that was meant to go live with HFC in mid-Dec 2017. The NBN contractors had been very busy in our area up until late Oct, & then their vans went away & we were just waiting to go live. When the 'pause' happened late last year our area just missed the pause cutoff date by a week, so we will be delayed until late 2018. However, the very same day the pause was announced, the contractors were back working in our area & have been busy again ever since. It looks like they are mostly connecting up premises that never had a cable lead-in in the first place (ie units & strata complexes that got skipped by the Telstra cable TV rollout back in the 90's). If HFC were being dropped entirely, I doubt they would be doing all this extra work right now. Sadly neither Nuskope or Uniti serve our area very well with wireless so its 2.5Mbit ADSL for us for a while longer ...

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#614 Post by mshagg » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:35 pm

Yeah recently moved to the western suburbs and signed up with Telstra HFC. NBN rollout was apparently planned for early 2018 prior to the pause in rollout. However NBN have been crawling all over the neighbourhood throughout January and even dug a new pit into the footpath right outside of our house.

Fibre to the curb would be an adequate substitute but honestly hoping for the status quo to be maintained. For all of the missteps retrofitting copper based technology into the NBN, which could have been fibre, it still wouldn't resolve the wholesale pricing structure and resulting CVC congestion. What good is gigabit fibre plugged directly into your brain if your RSP has barely provisioned enough bandwidth at the POI to sustain dial up speeds during peak times? NBN's wholesale model is broken and no amount of praising Labor's commitment to FTTH would resolve that.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#615 Post by bits » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:51 pm


rev wrote: I'm on cable with Telstra, I'm getting over 100Mbps down.
Pre-nbn I had 117/2.7 Telstra hfc.
Post-nbn I have 95/37 Telstra hfc.

While the extra upload is good I still find it kind of ridiculous that I had to drop my download speed to connect to nbn.
Many years of fast internet replaced with slower nbn.

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