News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#706 Post by SBD » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:50 pm

PeFe wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:09 pm
SRW wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:43 pm
Article about the untapped resource of the state's west coast:
'SA's renewable energy future hampered by lack of electricity infrastructure' as reported by ABC News
I have often thought that on a logical basis the west coast of Eyre Peninsula has excellent wind resources so why aren't we expoliting this?

Well as the article makes clear there is no (or too small) transmission infrastructure........

That section of the coast should be able to support 5 or 6 large wind farms.

Same goes for solar......how about a very large solar farm (say about 500-600mw) near Ceduna?

Why Ceduna?....because of the excellent solar resources (ie lots and lots of sunshine) and the fact that it is 40 minutes behind Adelaide (time wise) so that when the sun goes down in Adelaide (and and all other solar farms) there is still 40 minutes of productive use coming from Ceduna.

There is a lot of generation advantage of not having most solar farms on the same longitude......

All pipe dreams of because of lack of transmission lines.......but maybe one day the cost of building these new lines will be outweighed by the potential earnings of these distant renewable generating facilities.
I agree - there ought to be a solar farm near Wudinna with its capacity matched to the capacity of the transmission line plus the "local" (which would include Ceduna and Thevenard) demand. Looking at the demand curves in summer, this seems obvious.

Presumably if the Iron Road mine proposal gets developed, it will either fund the transmission capacity or have its own electricity generation.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#707 Post by PeFe » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:00 pm

Excellent article from Giles Parkinson at Renew Economy on how renewable energy/batteries saved South Australia from a total blackout on January 31 after a huge storm brought down the Heywood Connector between Victoria and South Australia (a far bigger transmission line than the one that caused 2016 blackout)
Wind and batteries saved the day when storm cut South Australia adrift

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South Australia’s wind farms and its growing fleet of big batteries played a critical role in keeping the lights on in the state after the dramatic weather events that resulted in one of the country’s biggest transmission lines being torn down by storms.

The events on the afternoon of Friday January 31 saw the South Australia grid separate from the rest of the National Electricity Market, and it has been operating as an effective island ever since – a ground breaking achievement given the level of renewables in the local grid and the added complexity of having to host the huge Portland aluminium smelter, which also found itself cut off from the rest of Victoria’s grid.

But it is the critical role played by South Australia wind farms and its three big batteries (Hornsdale, Lake Bonney and Dalrymple North) that point to the added grid security that comes with inverter-based technologies such as wind, solar and batteries, and their accompanying software.

When the storms hit on the afternoon of January 31 and tore down the massive 500kV transmission line (much bigger than the 275kV lines hit by tornadoes before the South Australia system black in 2016), South Australia had been exporting about 460MW of capacity to Victoria.

Image

The loss of the link meant that South Australia had way too much generation and the event pushed frequency levels up dangerously high. But several wind farms responded – as they are now programmed to do – by immediately reducing their output.

(This is called over frequency generator shedding, see graph above).

Image

And the batteries helped by immediately ramping up to charge and therefore add load to the grid – and then quickly change direction again as the frequency fluttered. (The three batteries are represented in blue in graph above. Orange is the frequency).

Some gas generators also responded, but the bulk of the instant response came from the wind farms, the three big batteries and two of the bigger solar farms. Rooftop solar also played a role, with inverters switching off – as they are now expected to do in such situations – adding to system demand, which is what the market operator wanted at the time. (See graph below).

Image

Indeed, it was the speed and the accuracy of the inverter-based technologies that AEMO engineers say was the key to bringing the frequency excursion back under control, keeping the lights on and preventing the type of catastrophic result that occurred in the “system black” in September 2016.

More details and insight are expected to be released when AEMO publishes its full report into the separation event in coming weeks.

There is no way of knowing what would have happened on January 31 had there been no wind generation in South Australia, or big batteries, and the operator had to rely only on a quick response from thermal generation (coal or gas).

That might be a moot point, anyway, because gas generation is usually so expensive it is unlikely it would have found a place in the Victoria market, so South Australia would be unlikely to have been exporting as much, if at all.

What the event of January 31, and the performance of the South Australia grid since that time, will do is help dismiss some of the myth-making about “variable” renewables such as wind and solar, and the benefits of battery storage.

What happened to South Australia is about as bad as it gets, but without coal, and without hydro, it has been managed in exemplary fashion. And it should be a tribute to good engineering, and an endorsement of renewable and battery technologies, and of the Liberal state government’s goal of reaching “net 100 per cent” renewables by 2030.

Since January 31, the South Australia grid has been operating as an effective “island”, with the added complexity of having the huge Portland aluminium smelter hanging off the end of the line, even though it is located in Victoria (but on the South Australia side of the stricken transmission line).

AEMO had never modelled such an outcome, and engineers who quickly put together a new set of scenarios compare the situation with having a “scooter towing a trailer”, with 500MW of constant load hitched to the end of a grid which often caters for less than 800MW scattered across an entire state.

It is seen as something of a world first, not least because South Australia has continued to operate with an average of more than 50 per cent renewables for the two weeks it has been operating as an island, and it has done so with a lower cost of power than coal-dominated NSW.

Fortunately, the Mortlake gas generators were also located on the South Australia side of the network break, because without them the smelter would have had no power and would have closed: the way the S.A. grid is designed, thermal or no thermal, it simply couldn’t supply such a power-hungry consumer at the end of a skinny line.

For the last two weeks, AEMO has had to redesign its market parameters. The three big batteries were taken out of the day-to-day market and put on standby – held at a constant state of charge at a “midpoint” because AEMO sees them as the best tool in its tool box to deliver fast and versatile response in case of any sudden trips in load or supply.

It’s not the first time that the batteries have played a critical role in keeping the lights on. Hornsdale was quick to show off its wares soon after its connection in late 2017 by responding quickest to one of the many coal unit trips in Victoria, and it was key to stabilising South Australia when another major transmission problem (this time from lightning) cause the separation of both Queensland and South Australia in August, 2018.

It’s also a testament to the qualities of wind power. The settings on the software of various wind farms was partly blamed for the 2016 system black. Part of the problem was that the settings were not known. AEMO has since made sure that software does what it is supposed to. This is a clear validation of the technology.

Since January 31, some wind farms have been sidelined – Macarthur in Victoria because it had no more link to the grid, and Portland in Victoria because it injects power into the Portland sub station and that was deemed to hard to manage, along with 275MW Lake Bonney wind farm and the Canunda wind farms which found themselves at the end of the line and without enough system strength to operate.

The amount of gas generation running at any one time was also lifted, to ensure enough synchronous capacity in the absence of the link to NSW. Such measures would probably not be required once new synchronous condensers are installed over the coming 12 months, and a new link to NSW built by 2024.

Still, the South Australia grid has continued to operate with wind and solar providing an average of more than 50 per cent of local demand, some times up to 75 per cent.

More measures were also flagged should demand fall below 800MW (later revised to 700MW) on a weekend with fine sunny weather, little industrial activity and lots of rooftop solar output. Those measures included switching off certain gas generators, as well as many large scale wind and solar farms, but they have not been invoked to date.

AEMO put together an advisory group involving the main network owners – ElectraNet, Powercorp and Ausnet, as well as Origin Energy (owner of Mortlake) and Tesla (provider of the Hornsdale and Lake Bonney batteries) to help manage the islanding situation.

The next big test will be to re-connect the Heywood interconnector and “re-synchronise” the South Australia and Victoria grids. This will have the added complication of only a “single” temporary line that has been built by Ausnet, and will look to be done while keeping Portland online. Normally they would cut the supply to Portland in such events, but they have decided this is too risky in the circumstances.

The reconnection is likely to happen sometime early next week. The second temporary circuit should be ready about four weeks later, but that means that the South Australia grid will be run with an increased “credible contingency” in case of an outage in the meantime. It will be six to 12 months before the original line is repaired.

As one insider said, it’s been a completely unique situation. “There would be no other system in the world where you have got a region that you have a 500-600MW minimum demand with a 500MW load hanging off it.”

And then there is the additional aspect of the high renewable penetration, which detractors would say would be impossible to manage. But it has been done. “It’s an unprecedented operation on world scale operating an electricity system with that sort of configuration.”

https://reneweconomy.com.au/wind-and-ba ... ift-22060/
And it looks like pumped-hydro is not going to have a huge future in Australia. The cost of batteries is falling every year and will soon be on parity with pumped hydro (and then fall even further)

But batteries are far more flexible and offer faster response times.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/big-batteri ... les-61123/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#708 Post by PD2/20 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:45 pm

The Heywood interconnector is now operational again from this afternoon. The AEMO dashboard is currently showing about 200MW import over the interconnector.

There were two relevant AEMO market notices this afternoon:
74208 POWER SYSTEM EVENTS 17/02/2020 04:24
Cancellation :- Vic - SA Separation Event - 31/01/20
AEMO ELECTRICITY MARKET NOTICE

Cancellation : - Separation of the Victoria and South Australia Regions - 31/01/2020

Refer AEMO Electricity Markewt Notice No 73172

At 1605 hrs 17/02/2020 the Victoria and South Australia regions were synchronised at Heywood Terminal Station.

Manager NEM Real Time Operations
74219 INTER-REGIONAL TRANSFER 17/02/2020 05:22
Inter-Regional Transfer limit variation - Murraylink
AEMO ELECTRICITY MARKET NOTICE

Inter-Regional Transfer limit variation - Murraylink

Murraylink was constrained to 0 MW from 1525 hrs to 1720 hrs for power system security during re-synchronising of Victoria and South Australia regions.

The following constraint set was invoked from 1525 hrs 17/02/2020 to 1720 hrs 17/02/2020

I-ML_ZERO

The constraint set contains the following interconnector on the left hand side.

V-S-MNSP1

Manager NEM Real Time Operations

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#709 Post by PeFe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 pm

South Australia re-connected to main grid as AEMO completes delicate operation

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The South Australia electricity market has been re-connected to the main national grid after the Australian Energy Market Operator completed a delicate operation to “resynchronise” the state using a temporary single line that was completed in little more than two weeks after ferocious storms tore down the main link with Victoria.

The re-connection appears to have been completed around 1605 AEST (5pm AEDT, as the grid does not operate on daylight saving time) and took around two hours to complete.

South Australia was abruptly cut off from the main grid around 1.35pm on Friday, January 31, when a storm flattened at leat six massive transmission lines that tore down the 500kV line that links Latrobe valley with the Portland smelter in south west Victoria, and then South Australia.

Despite the potentially huge impact of the event, the lights did not go out in South Australia, thanks largely – according to engineers at AEMO – to the quick and anticipated reaction from the state’s wind farms, solar farms, rooftop solar and battery storage.

The wind farm, and some solar farms, almost instantly reduced their output to deal with a surge in frequency (South Australia had been exporting nearly 500MW of excess output to Victoria at the time of the separation). The state’s three big batteries also played a key role by quickly ramping up to add load to the system, and then changing direction when needed to deal with frequency variations.

Remarkably, over much of the 16 days that South Australia was separated from the main grid the state still operated at more than 50 per cent renewables for much of the time, and for the first 12 days delivered cheaper wholesale prices than most other states.

However, a drop off in wind output over the last few days reduced the share of renewables, and delivered more pricing power to the gas generators that quickly bid up the price. The price surged even higher immediately after the re-connection to Victoria.

(South Australia was considered to be operating as an island, even though the smaller MurrayLink remained in operation. However, MurrayLink is a DC interconnection and does not provide system strength, so AEMO treated South Australia as an island even though it could deliver a small amount of exports, or accept a small amount of imports).

To add to the complication, the South Australia grid also had to accommodate the massive Portland smelter, which found itself on the South Australia side of the network separation. After being re-energised after the initial transmission break, the Portland smelter was powered by the nearby Mortlake gas generator in Victoria, but its attachment to South Australia complicated the management of the S.A. grid.

On Monday afternoon, the MurrayLink was reduced to zero output as AEMO went about the delicate task of re-connecting the two states and “resynchronising the two grids”. It sought expert advice from the main grid operators, and Tesla engineers, to help plan the procedure.

AEMO has since informed the market that the special directions imposed after the January 31 event have been rescinded, although the state will continue to rely on just one circuit to Victoria while another temporary circuit is added in a few weeks time. Full repairs to the damaged transmission line may take up to a year.

The state’s three big batteries – at Hornsdale, Dalrymple North and Lake Bonney have been allowed to resume market trades after being required by AEMO to rest at a certain hold point and in reserve. AEMO considered the batteries to be the sharpest tool in their box should anything go wrong while South Australia was operating as an island.

The Portland wind farm, near the smelter, has also been allowed to resume production, and it is assumed that other wind farms impacted by the outage – Lake Bonney and Canunda in South Australia and Macarthur in Victoria – will be allowed to resume production too.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... ion-16930/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#710 Post by PeFe » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:12 pm

Kanmantoo pumped hydro project in the Adelaide Hills fails to proceed.

I also believe that batteries are undermining the prospects of other pumped hydro projects.

Battery costs are falling year by year, as well as offering services like frequency control and soon "inertia".

From Renew Economy
AGL pulls plug on pumped hydro project shortlisted for ARENA grant

Image

AGL Energy has pulled the plug on the proposed Kanmantoo pumped hydro project in the Adelaide hills after failing to come to an agreement with its mining company joint venture partner over the use of a mining pit that would have been a key part of the storage facility.

AGL and Hillgrove Resources announced in separate statements late on Friday that they were walking away from a joint agreement to look at the 250MW, 2000MWh pumped hydro plant, which had even been shortlisted with three other pumped hydro projects for a potential major grant by the Australian Renewable Energy Agency.

The two companies didn’t say why the proposal unravelled, but it seems that the reason may have been that Hillgrove conducted drilling that revealed a new mineral resource, and wanted to continue operations at the mine. But the two companies couldn’t agree on how to deal with the mine pit that was going to be used in the pumped hydro proposal.

Kanmantoo was one of half a dozen different pumped hydro projects under consideration in South Australia, a state that will require more storage facilities as its share of wind and solar increases from its current levels of more than 50 per cent to the state Liberal government’s target of “net 100 per cent” by 2030.

The other projects shortlisted in the ARENA funding program – of up to $40 million – are Sunset Power and Delta Energy’s 242MW/1,835MW Goat Hill project near Port Augusta, Rise Renewables’ 250MW/2,000MWh Baroota project in which UPC bought a majority stake in this week , and EnergyAustralia’s 225MW/1800MWh Cultana sea-water project north of Whyalla.

Two of those projects – Goat Hill and Baroota, have also been shortlisted for the federal government’s Underwriting New Generation Investment program, along with Sanjeev Gupta’s proposals for his steel plant near Whyalla, which is also in the UNGI shortlist.

Like everything else in Australia’s electricity sector, things are running very late. There has been no word about the pumped hydro projects in the UNGI program, even though the shortlist of 12 projects was announced after a hurried selection process nearly a year ago, and the ARENA program is also delayed, having announced in August that a winner would be chosen before the end of 2019.

Analysts expect that the South Australia grid probably has room for one, or maybe two, pumped hydro projects in the short to medium term, and maybe more over the long term. However, the case for multiple pumped hydro projects is weakened by plans to build a new interconnector to NSW, which should be complete by 2024, and the push to more big batteries.

AGL is looking at a variety of big battery projects in other states, having announced a deal with Maoneng for 200MW/400MWh of battery storage in NSW and with Vena Energy for a 100MW/150MWh battery at Wandoan in NSW, and declaring the “dawn of a new battery age”. It is also looking at a pumped hydro project in NSW.

AGL’s head of wholesale markets Richard Wrightson said Hillgrove and AGL could not reach agreement on a way forward to progress the Kanmantoo project.

“The signing was the start of a multiple stage process to progress the project and the agreements were subject to a number of conditions which needed to be satisfied within specified timeframes,” Wrightson said in a statement.

“As a result, Hillgrove and AGL have mutually agreed to terminate the PHES Project Agreement without any ongoing obligation on either party.”

In its statement, Hillgrove said: As Hillgrove is no longer bound by the PHES restrictions it will now progress the approved additional drilling programme, mine design, optimisation and feasibility studies for an underground mining project beneath the Giant Pit, and continue advancing its regional exploration.”

https://reneweconomy.com.au/agl-pulls-p ... ant-18932/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#711 Post by SRW » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:46 pm

We're obviously at the point where we need to take the path of whatever's cheapest and quickest, but it's somewhat of a shame these pumped hydro projects haven't yet proved feasible because -- on a layman's superficial reading of it -- they seem intuitively more renewable in the sense that they're permanent installations whereas batteries deplete and require replacement.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#712 Post by PeFe » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:33 pm

SRW wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:46 pm
We're obviously at the point where we need to take the path of whatever's cheapest and quickest, but it's somewhat of a shame these pumped hydro projects haven't yet proved feasible because -- on a layman's superficial reading of it -- they seem intuitively more renewable in the sense that they're permanent installations whereas batteries deplete and require replacement.
Batteries are permanent......they are usually made up of modules..... I believe the Tesla big battery is made this way.

If you need to "upgrade" the battery you replace the modules one by one.....I know one of Tesla's standard batteries is 3mw.......so 3 mw at a time.

Also batteries are much quicker to build and deploy than pumped hydro.....quicker by years I would say.

It is the falling price of batteries (I have read somewhere that batteries prices in 2023 will be 50% of 2017 prices) and the increasing number of services that batteries can offer that has seen the future prospects of pumped hydro in this country fall faster than anyone expected and the Tesla battery can take a lot of credit for that....I am sure it has been way more successful than even Musk envisaged.

I would love to see the future costings for Snowy Hydro 2.0 versus batteries now......must be getting very interesting.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#713 Post by claybro » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:18 pm

But don't batteries and pumped hydro perform different functions? I thought the battery was to stabilise the grid, while other forms of generation kicked in or on sell power if there is a surplus. In the event of no wind or sun (at night for example) surely batteries can't supply all overnight energy on still winter nights? We seem to be getting to a place where people assume that batteries will provide baseload power, which is surely not the case in the foreseeable future. I thought the whole point of pumped hydro was baseload supply.. until recently when hydrogen storage started to gain a mention.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#714 Post by PeFe » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:52 am

claybro wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:18 pm
But don't batteries and pumped hydro perform different functions? I thought the battery was to stabilise the grid, while other forms of generation kicked in or on sell power if there is a surplus. In the event of no wind or sun (at night for example) surely batteries can't supply all overnight energy on still winter nights? We seem to be getting to a place where people assume that batteries will provide baseload power, which is surely not the case in the foreseeable future. I thought the whole point of pumped hydro was baseload supply.. until recently when hydrogen storage started to gain a mention.
The Tesla battery will be testing "inertia" services this year, previously this was done by gas (or coal)
Also in 2020 there will be installation of electrical condensers for system strength and inertia. These condensers cut down on the need for (expensive) gas in the power grid

https://www.electranet.com.au/wp-conten ... et_WEB.pdf

Can South Australia reach a stage where batteries could drive night time supply?

Yes it is possible in the near future. Practically every new solar/wind farm proposal comes with some sort of battery storage as well.
Batteries can be scaled up to larger sizes. I believe Tesla are working on the details for a proposed 1000mw battery.

And there are 4 or 5 VPP's in South Australia....as these grow bigger the amount of energy they can put out (even for just one hour) will reach into the hundreds of mw's.

Also as the percentage of homes that have their own batteries grow this will cut demand at peak times and hopefully all future battery owners become part of a VPP.

Aidan you seem concerned about "still nights in winter"....I reckon there is only one of those a year and then the wind returns pretty quickly and strongly by about 8pm.

The records show there is considerable wind every night in winter, autumn and spring.

Extreme heat waves in the summer are the real challenge....

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#715 Post by SBD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:16 am

Pumped hydro still seems to be an order of magnitude larger than (current) battery banks. I imagine the cost of batteries scale up roughly linearly (double the storage, double the cost). I expect that hydro has a different infrastructure cost structure, as the scale of the machinery is proportional to the power output, but the storage is scaled by the size of the top dam, and the cost of building a bigger one is probably not linear with its capacity.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#716 Post by claybro » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:24 pm

PeFe wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:52 am
claybro wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:18 pm
But don't batteries and pumped hydro perform different functions? I thought the battery was to stabilise the grid, while other forms of generation kicked in or on sell power if there is a surplus. In the event of no wind or sun (at night for example) surely batteries can't supply all overnight energy on still winter nights? We seem to be getting to a place where people assume that batteries will provide baseload power, which is surely not the case in the foreseeable future. I thought the whole point of pumped hydro was baseload supply.. until recently when hydrogen storage started to gain a mention.
The Tesla battery will be testing "inertia" services this year, previously this was done by gas (or coal)
Also in 2020 there will be installation of electrical condensers for system strength and inertia. These condensers cut down on the need for (expensive) gas in the power grid

https://www.electranet.com.au/wp-conten ... et_WEB.pdf

Can South Australia reach a stage where batteries could drive night time supply?

Yes it is possible in the near future. Practically every new solar/wind farm proposal comes with some sort of battery storage as well.
Batteries can be scaled up to larger sizes. I believe Tesla are working on the details for a proposed 1000mw battery.

And there are 4 or 5 VPP's in South Australia....as these grow bigger the amount of energy they can put out (even for just one hour) will reach into the hundreds of mw's.

Also as the percentage of homes that have their own batteries grow this will cut demand at peak times and hopefully all future battery owners become part of a VPP.

Aidan you seem concerned about "still nights in winter"....I reckon there is only one of those a year and then the wind returns pretty quickly and strongly by about 8pm.

The records show there is considerable wind every night in winter, autumn and spring.

Extreme heat waves in the summer are the real challenge....
Tesla may be working on a 1000mw battery, but for how long can it export this amount of power? Re "only 1 still night each winter and records show mostly windy nights" ? It may be a few years since I lived in SA.. but my experience of still cold frosty nights in SA would indicate otherwise-there are many still clear very cold nights across SE Australia in Winter. I am yet to be convinced that batteries are anywhere near the solution for these situations, but hey.. here's hoping the technology is that far advanced that we don't need hundreds of hydro dams.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#717 Post by PeFe » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:57 pm

claybro wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:24 pm
Tesla may be working on a 1000mw battery, but for how long can it export this amount of power?
Depends on how its configured...say for example you want to plug a large gap, it could be a 1000/4000 mwh.......1000mw available for 4 hours or 500mw available for 8 hours. Of course a battery like this does not exist yet but I have no doubt they are coming.
Re "only 1 still night each winter and records show mostly windy nights" ? It may be a few years since I lived in SA.. but my experience of still cold frosty nights in SA would indicate otherwise-there are many still clear very cold nights across SE Australia in Winter. I am yet to be convinced that batteries are anywhere near the solution for these situations, but hey.. here's hoping the technology is that far advanced that we don't need hundreds of hydro dams.
Claybro you may have experienced "cold still winter nights" where you lived at the time but that is not a general weather pattern in winter South Australia.

Yes I have seen a few early winter evenings where the wind output is really low (it is never zero) and I am slightly amazed by this until I look at a weather forecast, there is a big storm coming and for an hour or two it is really calm and placid but then.....so at 6pm there could be 60mw of wind but by 8 oclock its 700 or 800 mw.

Winter electricity demands usually peaks around 2000 mw and this peaks around 4-6pm.....as the evening progresses the demand decreases as businesses close and then by 9pm people start going to bed etc

So really winter is not an issue, even the right wing press in this country (ie News Corp) never mention electricity issues in winter because the real issues of electricity production revolve around heatwaves. This was true when all power power was fossil fueled and will remain an issue for renewables in the future.

Summer peak electricity demand in South Australia can reach towards 3400mw........now that is a lot of storage to contemplate (if there is absolutely no wind and solar after the sun has gone down)

At least solar helps by pushing the cut-off point later to when after the sun goes down, ie solar is there in large mws for those hot summer afternoons where everybody turns their air conditioners on at 4-30 increasing the demand on the grid dramatically.

I am not anti-pumped hydro....I am saying that the cost of alternative technology like batteries is plunging and the services batteries can offer seems to expanding all the time.

ARENA was due to announce the winning tender for funding of a pumped hydro scheme in South Australia in 2019 and that didn't happen so I am wondering what is going on behind the scenes.....

Do we need large amounts of power 24/7?

No we don't....that's my answer to people who advocate building coal plants etc because you can have huge amounts of power at 3 o/clock in the morning.... do we need large amounts pf power at 3am ?. ..no we dont and we will never will.

Electricity demand follows a fairly predictable pattern (very low demand overnight, increases at 6 and 7am as the world restarts, increase at 9am as everbody is at work, peak sometime late afternoon as the whole is engaging in activities that require electricity, drop in demand at 6pm as businesses close, further drops at 8-9pm, huge drop at 11pm.........its not rocket science, its predictable human behaviour)

So we need to be smart and manage the peaks by
- encourage home batteries that are part of a VPP, that decrease overall peak demand plus increases the pool of available electricity by 100-200 mw for one to two hours. Very useful in summer especially.

Large battery storage - doesn't have to be available 24 hours a day but a large amount for 2-3 hours will get us through the peaks

Understand the weather - weather records will tell the probability of windy conditions each night of the year so you can "forsee" likely problem times

Be aware of the latest research in power storage, there are billions of dollars being spent on this all around the world. The payoff for anyone that can reduce the cost of large amounts of storage will be enormous.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#718 Post by claybro » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:46 pm

Thanks for your thorough reply Pefe. I don't follow the electricity market closely... it is largely irrelevant here in the West, however what do you suppose the supply from battery would be like after the "3hour or so" overnight discharge period? I assume the climate hasn't changed so much in SA in my absence that winter dawns are not still completely calm... the sun has no generating ability until after 9am.. and yet industry ramps up at 7am.. as does everyone's toasters, heaters, hairdryers etc. yes the sun rises earlier further east.. but surely it is at best 9am SA time before any of that is available? Surely this is where batteries cannot suffice?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#719 Post by PeFe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:50 am

claybro wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:46 pm
Thanks for your thorough reply Pefe. I don't follow the electricity market closely... it is largely irrelevant here in the West, however what do you suppose the supply from battery would be like after the "3hour or so" overnight discharge period?
I am not sure what you mean.....batteries are usually discharged at peak demand times (late afternoon is a prime example). I dont think any electricity generator would waste good battery power discharging a battery overnight when the prices are so low. My guess is that the "spot" price of electricity at 3am is about 10% of the 3pm price.
i assume the climate hasn't changed so much in SA in my absence that winter dawns are not still completely calm... the sun has no generating ability until after 9am.. and yet industry ramps up at 7am.. as does everyone's toasters, heaters, hairdryers etc. yes the sun rises earlier further east.. but surely it is at best 9am SA time before any of that is available? Surely this is where batteries cannot suffice?
Yes in winter the sun doesn't really get going until 9am but the wind, that is there 99% of the time.....and if it doesn't then batteries can discharge for 3 hours to fill the gap and then re-charge in the middle of the day from solar or wind. 7-9am electricity demand is easily managed compared to late afternoon peak demand.

I see a time (and I mean in the next few years) when all daytime electricity will be solar and/or wind.....it is technically possible now in South Australia and AEMO are constantly lowering the limits of "minimum" gas generation to provide system strength to the grid. Batteries will backfill the gaps competing with gas on price outside daylight hours.

And WA should really pay more attention to the advances made in South Australian re renewables .......the largest gas plant in WA had a fire in December causing blackouts and putting instability into the grid. The instability was managed the old way......a person has to notice the problem and then phone or email another electricity generating plant to inject the correct amount of power to stabilize the grid.

Unfortunately one of the issues of grid instability (and why it needs to be addressed first before the restoration of that lost power) is that other power sources might "disconnect" from the grid and thats exactly what happened.....a small gas plant and a wind farm both disconnected increasing the size of the power shortage and causing a larger blackout.

If WA had any sort of large battery that can provide "frequency" services then the blackouts would have been less severe. South Australia has the Tesla battery, Yorke Peninsula battery, Lake Bonney battery and VPP'S that can provide these services.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#720 Post by PeFe » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:47 pm

To continue the conversation about big batteries and their future potential, California has just approved a proposal to build a "mega" battery that makes the Tesla battery at Jamestown look like a household item.

From Renew Economy
World’s largest Tesla megapack battery project approved for California

Image

Plans to repurpose California’s ageing Moss Landing gas power plant as the biggest Tesla “big battery” power plant in the world are quickly taking shape, after a 182.5MW/1.2GWh project was given the all-clear to go ahead in Monterey.

Local media reported on Thursday (Australian time) that the Monterey County Planning Commission had unanimously approved a joint project between Tesla and California utility PG&E to build a facility 10 times the capacity of South Australia’s ground-breaking Hornsdale Power Reserve to store and dispatch wind and solar energy.

The project will use Tesla’s relatively new utility-scale battery product, the Megapack, which was launched in July of 2019 with collaborations like this – and the nearby Vistra Energy 300-MW/1,200MWh Vistra Moss Landing Energy Storage system – in mind.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/worlds-larg ... nia-14525/

(And 1000 posts ! Its not the quantity...but the quality that counts !)

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