News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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jk1237
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by jk1237 »

I was only a kid at the time, but I remember Bridgewater trains taking just under an hour. They were obviously all Red hens and virtually all ran express to Belair (stopping only at Blackwood).

FYI so much of Queensland railways are windy and indirect but it doesn't stop them from investing in trains. Also for the first time in decades, NZ has just reintroduced passenger trains between Auckland and Hamilton. Again the route is not as direct as the motorway so takes longer, but hasn't stopped them. I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by PD2/20 »

VLtom wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:50 pm
photos from the Adelaide rail yards today, seems they've gotten a lot done, but no wires strung

https://imgur.com/gallery/mW1MUmB
During the two week closure mast and portal erection was completed out to Torrens Jn, including the stabling sidings to the north of the yards. Almost all the insulated arms have been installed together with tensioning weights and stay cables, making the yards ready for stringing. Stringing was commenced with Platforms 6-8 being completed, the overhead extended on both Port tracks and the Gawler Up track almost as far as the SAHMRI building and earth wires out to the fork of the lines at the RAH. The photos are at locations in the western half of the yard which has not yet been strung.
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Cable Stringing Adelaide Yard.png
Stringing Adelaide Yard 19/4/2021
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by SBD »

jk1237 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 pm
I was only a kid at the time, but I remember Bridgewater trains taking just under an hour. They were obviously all Red hens and virtually all ran express to Belair (stopping only at Blackwood).

FYI so much of Queensland railways are windy and indirect but it doesn't stop them from investing in trains. Also for the first time in decades, NZ has just reintroduced passenger trains between Auckland and Hamilton. Again the route is not as direct as the motorway so takes longer, but hasn't stopped them. I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
Are those Queensland and NZ routes intended as commuter routes into Brisbane/Auckland and adding to urban sprawl, or are they configured and timetabled as intercity routes? Google Maps says Auckland to Hamilton is presently 94 minutes by car or around two hours by bus tomorrow morning.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Jimmydubbya »

jk1237 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 pm
I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
I imagine a limited stopper departing just prior to Belair service stopping only at Showground, Mitcham, Blackwood, Belair, Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker would be viable. The idea that you can't have a train service because a car on the freeway is faster is preposterous - for one thing, it would help get cars off the freeway as some % of CBD workers in the hills would be able to catch the train. There's also accessibility - it would provide another option for elderly or differently abled persons in the hills to access services in the CBD without the need for a car.

Also - first post here, hi all!
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by SBD »

Jimmydubbya wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:00 am
jk1237 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 pm
I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
I imagine a limited stopper departing just prior to Belair service stopping only at Showground, Mitcham, Blackwood, Belair, Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker would be viable. The idea that you can't have a train service because a car on the freeway is faster is preposterous - for one thing, it would help get cars off the freeway as some % of CBD workers in the hills would be able to catch the train. There's also accessibility - it would provide another option for elderly or differently abled persons in the hills to access services in the CBD without the need for a car.

Also - first post here, hi all!
Interesting choice of stops. I'd drop one of Blackwood or Belair (feeder buses can fill the gap, or the local all-stops train) but add either Ambleside (near Hahndorf) or Balhannah - with park and ride for the upper Onkaparinga Valley which currently has buses to the city as well.

Mount Lofty, Aldgate and Bridgewater used to have metro railcar service until about 1986/7. Since then, the road link has been improved (the Heysen Tunnels have replaced the road over Eagle on the Hill). If the trains weren't viable then, and both the road and the bus service on it have improved more than the railway since then, why would a new rail service be viable now? There were far more people on the evening buses city-Aldgate than on the corresponding trains before they closed, when the conductor came through at Belair to work out which of the remaining stations actually needed to be stopped at.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by claybro »

Re trains v upgraded SE freeway. The benefits of the tunnels and lower reaches of the freeway made a huge difference 20 years ago, but increasing population in all areas of the hills has diminished this benefit. It is not induced demand, as there are few other viable alternatives for those in Mount Barker, but the population increase has been big in all towns. There are not really any more viable upgrades to the freeway for those city commuters, because it all comes to a stop at Glen Osmond road. Time to either reign in population increases in the hills, or plan a rail link. It is inconceivable that a modern style diesel electric train can not be substantially faster than the old red hen/bluebird services, even using the existing alignment.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by PeFe »

What about turning the SE freeway into a toll way during peak hours 7-9am and 4-7pm?

Yes I know very unpopular....this is Adelaide and we don't pay road tolls (but we do like driving our cars absolutely everywhere and expect clear roads and lots of parking)

As for a train to Mt Barker.....that alignment is so slow and windy....It will never compete against the bus on the freeway nor a private motor car. It probably needs to be totally rebuilt at a cost of hundreds of millions is dollars....and that is never gonna happen. Better to concentrate on a smarter way of utilising the freeway.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by PD2/20 »

SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:53 pm
Jimmydubbya wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:00 am
jk1237 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 pm
I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
I imagine a limited stopper departing just prior to Belair service stopping only at Showground, Mitcham, Blackwood, Belair, Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker would be viable. The idea that you can't have a train service because a car on the freeway is faster is preposterous - for one thing, it would help get cars off the freeway as some % of CBD workers in the hills would be able to catch the train. There's also accessibility - it would provide another option for elderly or differently abled persons in the hills to access services in the CBD without the need for a car.

Also - first post here, hi all!
Interesting choice of stops. I'd drop one of Blackwood or Belair (feeder buses can fill the gap, or the local all-stops train) but add either Ambleside (near Hahndorf) or Balhannah - with park and ride for the upper Onkaparinga Valley which currently has buses to the city as well.

Mount Lofty, Aldgate and Bridgewater used to have metro railcar service until about 1986/7. Since then, the road link has been improved (the Heysen Tunnels have replaced the road over Eagle on the Hill). If the trains weren't viable then, and both the road and the bus service on it have improved more than the railway since then, why would a new rail service be viable now? There were far more people on the evening buses city-Aldgate than on the corresponding trains before they closed, when the conductor came through at Belair to work out which of the remaining stations actually needed to be stopped at.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned in the discussion is the issue of gauge. The metro railcr service to Bridgewater was before the standardisation in 1995 which created the presenr SG ARTC track and restricted the metro line to single track and isolated Mt Barker from the main line. This work also removed the pllatforms on the ARTC side at most of the key suburban stations.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by SBD »

PD2/20 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:59 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:53 pm
Jimmydubbya wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:00 am


I imagine a limited stopper departing just prior to Belair service stopping only at Showground, Mitcham, Blackwood, Belair, Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker would be viable. The idea that you can't have a train service because a car on the freeway is faster is preposterous - for one thing, it would help get cars off the freeway as some % of CBD workers in the hills would be able to catch the train. There's also accessibility - it would provide another option for elderly or differently abled persons in the hills to access services in the CBD without the need for a car.

Also - first post here, hi all!
Interesting choice of stops. I'd drop one of Blackwood or Belair (feeder buses can fill the gap, or the local all-stops train) but add either Ambleside (near Hahndorf) or Balhannah - with park and ride for the upper Onkaparinga Valley which currently has buses to the city as well.

Mount Lofty, Aldgate and Bridgewater used to have metro railcar service until about 1986/7. Since then, the road link has been improved (the Heysen Tunnels have replaced the road over Eagle on the Hill). If the trains weren't viable then, and both the road and the bus service on it have improved more than the railway since then, why would a new rail service be viable now? There were far more people on the evening buses city-Aldgate than on the corresponding trains before they closed, when the conductor came through at Belair to work out which of the remaining stations actually needed to be stopped at.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned in the discussion is the issue of gauge. The metro railcr service to Bridgewater was before the standardisation in 1995 which created the presenr SG ARTC track and restricted the metro line to single track and isolated Mt Barker from the main line. This work also removed the pllatforms on the ARTC side at most of the key suburban stations.
If the demand and political will existed, gauge could be overcome.
  • Complete the GlobeLink rail bypass for ARTC and convert the Hills line back to metro broad gauge; or
  • convert the remaining Belair line to standard gauge, along with half the 3000-class railcars (which I believe are designed to enable this), including a couple of Adelaide Station platforms; or
  • Explore whether the "Short South" GlobeLink alternative could support both a freeway and a railway on a new alignment to connect Mount Barker to the Seaford Line with stations at Echunga and Aberfoyle Park
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Jimmydubbya »

SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:53 pm
Jimmydubbya wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:00 am
jk1237 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 pm
I don't think the Mt Barker route is that slow, especially how clogged up Glen Osmond Road is in peak. About the only issue is our conservative old Adelaide mindset that trains are bad and only cars are the way to move around.
I imagine a limited stopper departing just prior to Belair service stopping only at Showground, Mitcham, Blackwood, Belair, Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker would be viable. The idea that you can't have a train service because a car on the freeway is faster is preposterous - for one thing, it would help get cars off the freeway as some % of CBD workers in the hills would be able to catch the train. There's also accessibility - it would provide another option for elderly or differently abled persons in the hills to access services in the CBD without the need for a car.

Also - first post here, hi all!
Interesting choice of stops. I'd drop one of Blackwood or Belair (feeder buses can fill the gap, or the local all-stops train) but add either Ambleside (near Hahndorf) or Balhannah - with park and ride for the upper Onkaparinga Valley which currently has buses to the city as well.

Mount Lofty, Aldgate and Bridgewater used to have metro railcar service until about 1986/7. Since then, the road link has been improved (the Heysen Tunnels have replaced the road over Eagle on the Hill). If the trains weren't viable then, and both the road and the bus service on it have improved more than the railway since then, why would a new rail service be viable now? There were far more people on the evening buses city-Aldgate than on the corresponding trains before they closed, when the conductor came through at Belair to work out which of the remaining stations actually needed to be stopped at.
I figured a couple of stops between Belair - Adelaide would allow hills commuters to alight at various points along the line if they didn't require the full trip into the city. You're probably right in that Blackwood is a better option than Belair since it has bus connections to other destinations - in which case technically you could probably drop Mitcham as well. I'm not too knowledgeable about the hills so I didn't realise Ambleside and Balhannah had stations as well.

As for viability, hasn't there been a big population growth out that way and only getting bigger? at a certain point I'd argue that having road-only services will be unable to cope with capacity. Passenger numbers from 35 years ago aren't really indicative of what is necessary in 2021.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by rubberman »

I'd suggest that if the option of standardising the Belair Line were seriously looked at, then a service to Two Wells and Virginia should also be in play. Those are perfect for heavy rail. Long station spacing allowing high speeds, playing to heavy rail's prime advantages. Plus, the area is fast developing. Get people used to fast rail, rather than have them used to driving into town. Wait five years, and they'll be welded to their cars.

Plus, of course, the work required in the Adelaide Yard is more economical if it's done for two lines, rather than one.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Bob »

To relieve the future congestion on the SE FW and have even a remote chance of the current rail line being used for passenger service between ARS and Mt Barker, firstly two major things would have to happen to build that framework, (1) finish the NS MW and connect it to the SE FW and (2) build the ARTC rail route as per the 2010 plan using the southern alignment route - that was the rail tunnel from inner southern suburbs to Mt Bold then surface rail route to Callington. That gets the major freight on the Mel-Ade-Per route for both road & rail out of the way. That’s a lot of $$$ to build these.

Then to upgrade the existing Mt Barker line would require (1) a decision if Adelaide Metro rail network is to be all broad gauge or all standard gauge in the long term, (2) a decision on which stations would give maximum benefit to the line as others have already alluded so they can be upgraded including parking and bus interchanging if applicable, (3) what other attractions could increase passenger traffic apart from normal commuters – e.g. merging the Port Dock Rail Museum and Steamranger and building the new facility for this bigger operation at Mt Barker and opening 7 days week? Building larger scale tourist accommodation making Mt Barker a base for Adelaide Hills tourism including cross bus routes to connect? There must be endless other opportunities to leverage off a rail service? And lastly proper scheduling both in frequency and timing – and travel time would need to be less than the old SAR days.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Spotto »

Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:23 am
(2) build the ARTC rail route as per the 2010 plan using the southern alignment route - that was the rail tunnel from inner southern suburbs to Mt Bold then surface rail route to Callington. That gets the major freight on the Mel-Ade-Per route for both road & rail out of the way. That’s a lot of $$$ to build these.
For the mega millions that would be spent to build a full freight bypass of Adelaide, which would still leave the line from Adelaide to Mount Barker still a winding indirect route, the same money could build the proposed bypass along Brown Hill Creek from Mitcham to rejoin the mainline at Stirling with an upgrade of the corridor between Adelaide and Mitcham, then possibly a Stage 2 realignment from Bridgewater to Monarto via the SEF. Kill two birds (freight and passenger) with one stone as it were.

I'm not convinced that fully removing rail freight from Adelaide would be a good call, especially for encouraging its use under convenience; the first-mile-last-mile issue would be amplified since trucks moving freight from the intermodal terminal to its final destination inside Adelaide or v.v. would have to travel from outside of Adelaide instead of from Islington. Islington is also conveniently located adjacent to and in the vicinity of Adelaide's industrial suburbs, reasonably centrally located, and is right next to the already finished sections of the NSM.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Bob »

Spotto wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:21 pm
Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:23 am
(2) build the ARTC rail route as per the 2010 plan using the southern alignment route - that was the rail tunnel from inner southern suburbs to Mt Bold then surface rail route to Callington. That gets the major freight on the Mel-Ade-Per route for both road & rail out of the way. That’s a lot of $$$ to build these.
For the mega millions that would be spent to build a full freight bypass of Adelaide, which would still leave the line from Adelaide to Mount Barker still a winding indirect route, the same money could build the proposed bypass along Brown Hill Creek from Mitcham to rejoin the mainline at Stirling with an upgrade of the corridor between Adelaide and Mitcham, then possibly a Stage 2 realignment from Bridgewater to Monarto via the SEF. Kill two birds (freight and passenger) with one stone as it were.

I'm not convinced that fully removing rail freight from Adelaide would be a good call, especially for encouraging its use under convenience; the first-mile-last-mile issue would be amplified since trucks moving freight from the intermodal terminal to its final destination inside Adelaide or v.v. would have to travel from outside of Adelaide instead of from Islington. Islington is also conveniently located adjacent to and in the vicinity of Adelaide's industrial suburbs, reasonably centrally located, and is right next to the already finished sections of the NSM.
Not talking about by-passing Adelaide - talking about building the connections from the MS MW to the SE FW to ensure Adelaide remains on the main route and building the proposed ARTC rail route as per above - it is proposed from Goodwood Junction to Callington via tunnel under southern suburbia then surface rail from Mt Bold to Callington, this keep Adelaide on the main line from Melbourne to Perth and maintains the freight access as you outline. As you would have noted from other posts I made in the past on this forum - I am against any bypassing of Adelaide for freight by either road or rail - hence my most recent post. That's why me and many others were dead against Globelink right form the start. The new route proposed is for double staked container trains.

Edit - have added the 2010 link - see option 4 - southern alignment
https://investment.infrastructure.gov.a ... Report.pdf
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by whatstheirnamesmom »

Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:48 pm

Not talking about by-passing Adelaide - talking about building the connections from the MS MW to the SE FW to ensure Adelaide remains on the main route and building the proposed ARTC rail route as per above - it is proposed from Goodwood Junction to Callington via tunnel under southern suburbia then surface rail from Mt Bold to Callington, this keep Adelaide on the main line from Melbourne to Perth and maintains the freight access as you outline. As you would have noted from other posts I made in the past on this forum - I am against any bypassing of Adelaide for freight by either road or rail - hence my most recent post. That's why me and many others were dead against Globelink right form the start. The new route proposed is for double staked container trains.
What would be wrong with building a northern rail bypass only? And leaving freight terminal at Islington and Dry Creek?

Benefits for the Mt Bold option vs northern bypass option seem similar (both eliminate freight for southern suburbs residents, both move freight off the Belair alignment, both still allow freight to come into Adelaide on the way to Per/Mel). But I bet northern bypass would be cheaper

If we're going to build tunnels and a new hills rail line, it should be for passengers and go the shortest practical route through to Mt Barker.
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